Obama Justice, help understanding.

[Chig]

First off Kirb is still with us.  He has done extremely well, but I the past couple days his lymph nodes in his neck are much larger... I suspect this is a sign that the disease is progressing rapidly.  He still goes on walks, eats vigorously chases hawks out of the yard and tries to be normal around the rest of the pack....  but I know the disease is catching up with him, and this time I don't think I can alleviate some of the discomfort.  We shall see.  He had a very excellent week  up until the day before yesterday.  I am grateful for every day there is a sparkle in his eye and a joy to be alive.

 

Regarding the title of the blog.

Now, I was just pondering something about a 60 minutes sound byte from the President.   I am not taking any stance or anything, but rather just trying to understand the logic of a logical man.  This is a President that appears to be thoughtful and objective on issues before acting.      At one point he was so concerned about justice he was suggesting that the Guantanamo detainees receive a Civilian Trial.  I know he reversed that recently to Military Trials but left the door open for Civilian trials.  Okay Justice is not as black and white as it seemed to be earlier.   That may just be a sign that more facts presented themselves to the President.   Civilian trials.. then military trials must be done, trials must be done..... Yet he chooses to state that when Osama was shot unarmed in a bedroom (although I hear there was a weapon in the room) that "Justice had been done".   Would that suggest justice for some of the detainees,like Khalid Sheikh Mohammed in Guantanamo would mean to just open up their cells and shoot them?  I know at one time he pushed for a Civilian Trial in New York for him.   I am just not quite able to resolve the logic here.

Perhaps he is suggesting it was the smart thing to do to shoot Osama..That more than likely would be correct.. Using the term Justice is a poor choice of words?  However, Presidents often have their words carefully crafted.  This just baffles me when I try to figure out how this objectively represents justice in Obama Logic .  It sounds to me like give everyone a trial unless the President says a bullet is more appropriate, and that is Justice.

[Holger]

Kudos for questioning your Nobel Peace Prize winner on this topic. I think that is a very curageous thing to do in the USA.

[NatureJunkie]

First off, thank you for the update on Kirby. I revisited his photos this week and he has been very much on my mind. "I am grateful for every day there is a sparkle in his eye and a joy to be alive." I have a very elderly, sick cat right now and I feel the very same way about her. I hope Kirby still has some good days left.

[NatureJunkie]

If A equals B, and B equals C, then A should equal C. Admittedly, Obama's decision about how to take Bin Laden did not follow this logic and I can't defend his actions based on arguments of logic or ethics. As I see it, there was no outcome that would have brought "justice" in this scenario. What is justice for inflicting the torturous deaths suffered by nearly three thousand people as they were burned or crushed, and could that justice be imposed three thousand times over?

 

I fervently believe that putting Bin Laden on trial would have resulted in even more deaths by creating a world stage that invited violent protest. Perhaps that is the inner logic President Obama used for himself. I won't condemn him for his lack of consistent logic. This event is so shrouded in shades of gray that I cannot find any black or white in it. As for justice, there was never any to be had, regardless of the process or the outcome.

[BlancheNoE]

I am happy and sad to hear of Kirbs. I'm hoping for a miracle.

Now, as to your analogy, well, I think you could have come up with a better one, Bruce. Don't get me wrong. I think that if you're going to hold people indefinitely without charges, you might as well shoot them in the head.

It's more kind. Now, moving onto the intended subject  (I think) of this blog :

I'm very torn on the subject of killing,... for ANY reason, even self defense. I think I would do it to protect a loved one including pets. I don't like the idea of it. I don't like a lot of things on this plane of existence. 

I believe the order from the president was probably along the lines of ' get him dead or alive'. I imagine he gave the generals some free license who in turn gave the SEALS some free license to assess the situation and adapt. None of us except the shooter can know what was going through his mind but think about it. A terrorist mastermind who had evaded capture for over 10 years and the possibility that he could slip away again. Knowing what we know now about Pakistan, I think they would have hidden him again if he'd gotten out alive. He was paying a whole lot of protection money, I'm sure. I still don't know if that makes anything right but I'll give the shooter and the president the benefit of the doubt on this one.

[Chig]

For me It's not about what should or should not have happened.  It is not about killing.   I think what happened was a brilliantly executed military operation (although I am not keen on a 12 year old girl watching her mother and father shot and having to live with that the rest of her life), and a risky one at that.   The outcome was a means to minimize the risk. The chosen execution of the plan gathered much intel. Rather for me the disturbing part  is about sensationalizing the act.... It is about a swagger and a Dirty Harry flavor to a statement like "Justice has been done" to the world, to the people.... coming from someone who made such a point that justice should be done through the judicial process...  It is about desensitizing people with such to the point that they come to accept executive branch can hand out justice or do away with it.  This sensationalism leads to vitriol,  political prejudice , and just maybe if we get lost in the emotion and sensationalism, to a dictatorship.  The kind of dictatorship where one man can try and execute anyone because in their view it is justice, or in the court of public opinion which  one human sways with sensationlism. 

The subject intended here is: "Justice has been done".    I can't begin to guess the circumstances of Sunday's event.  The statements made after word, another story....

[BlancheNoE]

Okay, sorry. I'm a bit foggy these days. I missed the subject. You're right. There is rarely justice. I think the media is more responsible for the hype, though * coughRupertMurdoch*. I think the announcement from President Obama was for the most part, apropos. Yeah, he could have left out the "Justice has been done".

Seems like all presidents say dumb stuff like that. Some more than others, but it doesn't make it right for any of them.  

You know I loves ya' whether I'm foggy or not.

[Chig]

No apologies..... I am glad you added to this discussion.

You know this "dumb stuff" goes into the history book.  This was too monumental of a moment in history to

pull a boner.  This phrase was well planned.   

And it just occurred to me, if I ever feel like my life sucks, imagine that 12 year old's life..... for so many reasons.    I hope she finds peace and is not tormented for being the daughter of a "monster", or becomes one herself because of all this.

 

[NatureJunkie]

Chig, I'm embarrassed to admit it, but I had not thought deeply about the implications of President Obama voicing that particular phrase. You made some excellent observations. Although the event gave me a sense of relief, it left me with all kinds of other unsettled emotions. And now you've given me even more cause for feeling unsettled.

[Chig]

I liked your observations NJ.  P.S.  Kirby is having a pretty good day today, although those lymph nodes are still large.

 

[photo2010]

I also hope for a miracle for Kirby to get better. 

Following the announcement Sunday night, i felt it was probably a good thing that bin Laden was gone,

but that it also felt weird to see jubilation in the streets over a death, any death. At the same time, I

have sometimes wondered what might have happened if Jews had been armed when the Nazis broke

their doors down to put them in cattle cars.

 

Just to play devil's advocate Chig, would you feel different if bin Laden had been given the time to

grab a weapon and aim before they took him out American Western style? Would that have closer

to "justice". Or if bin Laden killed one or two Navy Seals before they killed him? The 3000 people

who died on 9/11 were not offered justice, and they hadn't killed anyone. Just throwing some

thoughts out there. Maybe the phrase "justice has been done" is inappropriate, and I wish bin Laden could have been put on trial like Adolf Eichmann was, if only to give the families of bin Laden's victims the chance to testify before the world.

I once stopped someone from mugging my Father when I was traveling with my parents in Europe.

The mugger ran away, but I would have done anything to protect my family.